tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post1929407881932258026..comments2024-03-25T12:55:40.911+00:00Comments on Caron's Musings: How very dare you, Joan McAlpine!Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04988201531739344840noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-87737950576659964252012-01-16T17:55:54.509+00:002012-01-16T17:55:54.509+00:00I'm with Caron on this one - using emotionally...I'm with Caron on this one - using emotionally loaded terms like 'anti-Scottish' just isn't helpful.Calton Hillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16632701203529550819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-3474105043534849102012-01-16T17:37:07.845+00:002012-01-16T17:37:07.845+00:00As a former Lib-Dem voter and campaigner, I am sad...As a former Lib-Dem voter and campaigner, I am saddened by the recent decline in what was once a respectable and decent party. It seems that the taste of power in Westminster, and subsequent loss of power in Holyrood has gone to their heads.<br /><br />To see the Lib-Dems stooping to such dirty politics is such a shame. I can't blame a lot of people for buying into this story, but those who follow Scottish politics closely (ie, MSPs, political journalists and bloggers) are well aware that this whole debacle relies entirely on a lack of context.<br /><br />Perhaps McAlpine could have worded what she said more eloquently, and she should certainly have been less complacent about her political opponents' tendency to pounce upon any statement which could so easily be taken out of context. This mud-slinging defines that which is turning many away from politics. For shame.Jackf834https://www.blogger.com/profile/15046295832193974724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-17405302278408256482012-01-15T21:25:00.547+00:002012-01-15T21:25:00.547+00:00I think that we can all agree that name-calling ov...I think that we can all agree that name-calling over who is the most patriotic or over who loves Scotland more is not going to get us very far. However there is also a danger of knee-jerk reactions being fired off all over the place. Lets look at what was actually said. Joan was NOT calling the members of the LibDems, Labour or the Tories anti-Scottish. The point she made was that the leaders of those parties were behaving in an anti-Scottish way. I think she was right to say that. The Claim of Rights sets out an important principle that it is the Scottish people themselves who have the right to determine their constitutional future. As such it is the elected Scottish Parliament that must determine the process and rules and timing of the referendum. Those who seek to impose a situation where the Tories in London can, on the basis of one MP, tell the Scottish people the terms of their own referendum are, I'm afraid being both anti-democratic and anti-Scottish.MakingHistorynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-34105169800699627462012-01-14T22:48:27.203+00:002012-01-14T22:48:27.203+00:00Bob
It is if one scrolls down a bit as I have jus...Bob<br /><br />It is if one scrolls down a bit as I have just done but must admit I have never looked before.cynicalHighlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06034325908473006163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-63194108469130698052012-01-14T21:44:54.663+00:002012-01-14T21:44:54.663+00:00Anon you are Daniel Maxwell from the BBCAnon you are <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01986s4/Newswatch_13_01_2012/" rel="nofollow">Daniel Maxwell</a> from the BBCcynicalHighlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06034325908473006163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-53480086291191591092012-01-14T21:36:57.976+00:002012-01-14T21:36:57.976+00:00Anon.
I only knew about Caron's blog because i...Anon.<br />I only knew about Caron's blog because it's linked from an SNP blog ( Munguins). A link not reciprocated by Caron.<br />Not sure where the bullying is.Bobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-19115007231392731002012-01-14T20:09:03.764+00:002012-01-14T20:09:03.764+00:00Oh the joy of watching cybernats band together to ...Oh the joy of watching cybernats band together to bully this blog. The SNP's concept of democracy this week has sent undecideds like me fleeing from the EckpartyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-39463328472426222822012-01-14T13:26:54.378+00:002012-01-14T13:26:54.378+00:00"innocently wonders whether Caron will answer..."innocently wonders whether Caron will answer any of the comments the many SNPers have made on this blogpost..."Munguinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16475165830302054002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-87574816139766755052012-01-14T06:52:17.568+00:002012-01-14T06:52:17.568+00:00In as much as I personally do not believe that it ...In as much as I personally do not believe that it is possible to be pro-Scotland and pro-United Kingdom, the pro-UK stance of all the unionist parties and particularly their Scottish bits (branches, adjuncts, glove puppets, toadies...call them what you will) can logically be viewed as anti-Scottish. In as much as they wish to promote the interests of the United Kingdom over the interests of their home land, Scotland. Or more likely the parties involved place the interests of themselves and their particular parties above the interests of the Scottish nation or in the case of the Lib Dems they place the interests of the Conservative Party above the interests of the Scottish nation and people.<br /><br />Let’s not get all dewy eyed about how much the rest of the United Kingdom loves the Scots. A glance at the comments sections on the Daily Mail or the Daily Telegraph should convince anyone that left to them, the Scots would have been out the door years ago. So what exactly are the ties that bind? Oh yes, it’s all that oil that we have off shore and that keeps the UK economy afloat, bails out failed British banks, pays for nuclear weapons that will never be used and keeps David Cameron at the top table, G7, Security Council and so on. That, that is the case is more than evidenced in the UK’s continual efforts to cheat us out of it by altering the sea borders of Scotland to be north of the Forth, cheating us out of devolution the first time round, encouraging Orkney and Shetland to become independent of Scotland, continually playing down how much is left and how much it’s worth and so on.<br /><br />Is it any wonder then that when the Tory glove puppet Michael Moore pops up spouting Conservative policy and ignoring the Lib Dems previous pro-federalist stance that logic suggests would cause them to plump for the third “devo-max” question. That some are inclined to label him ant-Scottish?<br /><br />Here is the rub Caron; the Scots associate the Conservative Party as being pro-UK as indeed it is, and the majority of them are not keen on that. When Nick Clegg jumps into bed with the Tories and Michael Moore makes himself the Tories man in Scotland instead of Scotland’s man in the UK cabinet. They are seen to be exactly what they are, anti-Scottish!<br /><br />Please don’t be so easily offended Caron. I for one would certainly not be livid all night if I were labelled anti-United Kingdom!Munguinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16475165830302054002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-12136934036949488822012-01-13T23:40:17.688+00:002012-01-13T23:40:17.688+00:00I'm baffled at the number of people who have c...I'm baffled at the number of people who have chosen - and they have definitely CHOSEN - to be personally offended by a remark that was directed at the actions of political parties. <br /><br />That's not a healthy relationship to have with a political party. If I felt as bad as you clearly do after reading the bile tweeted by unionists and directed at the SNP in the last 48 hours.... if I took it personally... even the stuff from sitting MPs.... well I can't imagine it. It doesn't sound healthy. Just saying.NikkiiHhttp://clinicallyfedup.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-72916426027751127032012-01-13T21:18:31.626+00:002012-01-13T21:18:31.626+00:00Oh I forgot to say. Do you not think you're be...Oh I forgot to say. Do you not think you're being a bit precious Caron ? If being called 'anti Scottish' causes you so much distress do you think you should be in politics ? Have you ever read or heard what Scots are called in the English press ?<br />And if you love your country why don't you want it to set it's own agenda and run it's own affairs away from interference from London ?Bobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-53437916247167461582012-01-13T21:14:22.020+00:002012-01-13T21:14:22.020+00:00Why should Scotland require the blessing of London...Why should Scotland require the blessing of London to hold a referendum ? Are the Scottish people not Sovereign ? Attempts by London to bring in conditions for a referendum is against the wishes of the Scottish electorate who voted for an SNP Government that promised a referendum. London have decided to be anti Scottish and try and set the agenda. After 300 years of London control surely Scotland can have a free referendum without anti Scottish rhetoric from Clegg/ Cameron/ Milliband etc.Bobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-44118638986566796242012-01-13T20:59:20.566+00:002012-01-13T20:59:20.566+00:00Well I have just listened to Lesley Riddoch give M...Well I have just listened to Lesley Riddoch give Michael Moore and the LibDems a deserved mauling on R4 after he kept doing the constant interrupt method employed by arch unionists as their only substance.cynicalHighlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06034325908473006163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-8160442489005251852012-01-13T20:13:06.616+00:002012-01-13T20:13:06.616+00:00I'm confused. In what way is an offer to give ...I'm confused. In what way is an offer to give the power to make the referendum legal denying democracy? How is empowering the Scottish people anti-Scottish? <br /><br />Im also confused Caron. What about the last four years when the Lib Dems joined with the toxic torys and Labour to specifically deny the people a vote on their own future, a move which was both anti democratic and anti Scottish.<br /><br />Do you think we have forgotten the last four years when up to April a referendum was a distraction and suddenly in May a referendum was needed immediately.<br /><br />I have often asked unionists just what happened in May that made then change their mind. Like Moores £3 million I am still waiting.<br /><br />The reality of the situation was that up until May the unionists thought that Dewars gerrymandering of the voting system would still protect them, and they would be able to return to Holyrood and continue to block any referendum while forcing through Holyrood the dogs breakfast that is Calman.<br /><br />Mays vote changed the game, Calman is a dead duck and a referendum will happen, and it will be the same as any other referendum held in the UK, advisory, though Westminster would ignore its findings at it peril.<br /><br />So the governor general Moore tells us the torys have instructed him to offer to make the referendum legal. Thats big of him and them, will he follow the UK precedent on these things and bring beads that he can distribute to the grateful natives?<br /><br />Lib Dems getting into bed with the torys have destroyed them as a creditable force in Scotland for generations, it will be interesting to see if Labour suffer the same fate.<br /><br />Joan MacAlpine was telling it like it is, and the phoney outrage is a sign of the desperation of the unionist argument.Dubbiesidehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14351210091827242674noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-27011782549953479302012-01-13T18:51:35.439+00:002012-01-13T18:51:35.439+00:00I read a post from you, CH, & thought I'd...I read a post from you, CH, & thought I'd approved it. For some reason silly iPad won't let me on to comments page on blogger & I've deleted the e-mail notification. If you have a copy to hand, please can you resubmit it. If not, I'll see if I can find it when I get back on the laptop.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04988201531739344840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-64978038701054592452012-01-13T18:46:38.883+00:002012-01-13T18:46:38.883+00:00I find it very worrying that people are prepared t...<i>I find it very worrying that people are prepared to openly defend McAlpine's comment.</i><br /><br />I find it worrying that you are embarrassed in your own parties involvement in the anti SNP rhetoric in the post I submitted which hasn't been published, yet. <b>'Who Cares'</b>cynicalHighlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06034325908473006163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-77342529063866004992012-01-13T18:23:29.600+00:002012-01-13T18:23:29.600+00:00"How is empowering the Scottish people anti-S..."How is empowering the Scottish people anti-Scottish? "<br /><br />The Scottish people do not need to be "empowered". They remain sovereign in Scotland as they've always been under the Treaty of Union, and can express their desire to leave that Union with or without London's permission.<br /><br />"In what way is an offer to give the power to make the referendum legal denying democracy?"<br /><br />It isn't. Attaching conditions such as a one-question referendum is.<br /><br />Why do the Lib Dems want to waffle away pointlessly in YET ANOTHER commission that nobody will care the slightest bit about the result of, rather than take this golden opportunity to put what they claim to advocate - a federal UK - to the people of Scotland as an option? A referendum is as real as democracy gets, why do you want to limit people's choices, to the point of actually excluding the one you profess to believe in?<br /><br />"I find it very worrying that people are prepared to openly defend McAlpine's comment."<br /><br />You find it "worrying" that people make a rational and reasoned argument which you disagree with? Heavens, you're going to be in a real state if there's a zombie apocalypse.RevStuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03915111503712807257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-1340439052276205122012-01-13T18:06:35.453+00:002012-01-13T18:06:35.453+00:00I'm confused. In what way is an offer to give ...I'm confused. In what way is an offer to give the power to make the referendum legal denying democracy? How is empowering the Scottish people anti-Scottish? <br /><br />I find it very worrying that people are prepared to openly defend McAlpine's comment.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04988201531739344840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-82405501526881496262012-01-13T17:00:28.671+00:002012-01-13T17:00:28.671+00:00You are going from bad to worse.
She could have s...You are going from bad to worse.<br /><br />She could have signed a pledge to do something, say for instance oppose tuition fees. She could then have reneged on that signed pledge at the first sniff power or a ministerial car.<br /><br />Now that would have been an outrage and you could have jumped up and down and said "How dare you, oh wait a minute it was Nick Clegg"<br /><br />One wonders why that outrage passed you by? <br /><br />Why does G Potter think no SNPers will turn up to answer this rubbish. RevStu has nailed that, and we all remember the last four years when the Lib Dems with their Labour and tory chums were denying the people a chance to vote on their own future. That is both anti democratic and anti Scottish.Dubbiesidehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14351210091827242674noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-31437607692438733792012-01-13T16:21:06.013+00:002012-01-13T16:21:06.013+00:00I agree with the Rev Stu's post.
It is not an...I agree with the Rev Stu's post.<br /><br />It is not anti-Scottish to wish to be a adjunct or junior partner in the UK. Of course it is not.<br /><br />To paraphrase Jean Brodie.."For those that want that kind of thing, that is the kind of thing they want."<br /><br />Personally I don't want to be a part of a tumbled down, worn out old country that still thinks it matters because it once conquered the world and made it Christian, Anglophone and cricket-playing. And which, in order to buy a seat at the top table hands out vast amounts of money to countries that are better off that we are, and which spends an unimaginable amount to retain a bomb no one will ever use.<br /><br />It's pathetic that at the same time this relic of a state takes money away from the poor to hand to bankers and financiers in "the City".<br /><br />What a bloody farce.<br /><br />Then just across the water there's Norway, with less oil and a standard of living most of us can only dream about, and an oil fund that would wipe out the UK debt for 5 million people. Oh to be Norwegian!<br /><br />The UK has managed to build up debt of almost 1000% of its GDP!<br /><br />But if people want to be a part of what Cameron and Moore calls the most successful union ever in the history of the universe (Does he know ANYTHING AT ALL about the history that he's supposed to have a degree in?) then that is their business, and if they see their country as the United Kingdom of great Britain and N.I., then of course it's not unpatriotic.<br /><br />And yes, George, I condemn Joan roundly for the tweet. If I were a politician I wouldn't touch Twitter with a barge pole. She shuld know better.<br /><br />But, I'd be wary of criticising too roundly, people who tweet emabrrassing rubbish. It won't be long before the next one does it, and he may be yours.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-5289705839527565712012-01-13T16:08:24.214+00:002012-01-13T16:08:24.214+00:00In a week where there has been a concerted assault...In a week where there has been a concerted assault on the SNP from the three Unionist parties both north and south of the border there is little surprise indeed that somebody vented their frustration on twitter. There is also little surprise that the usual suspects who seem to circle like vultures looking for carrion have jumped on this and blown it out of all proportion.<br /><br />Is there no dirty trick, no low that they wont stoop to these unionists, in order to keep our oil in their blessed Union? The most successful “partnership” in history according to David Cameron and Michael Moore. Only they don’t seem to live in Scotland where the sainted union has left parts of Glasgow the most deprived areas in the UK with life expectancy the lowest and child poverty the highest never mind the good the Union has done for the economy recently. And what do Caron and her ilk carp about? Not discussing the huge benefits of being in the Union, not rising above anything but instead a whole pile of sanctimonious claptrap regarding an unguarded comment on twitter!Munguinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16475165830302054002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-15254515544639488712012-01-13T15:54:26.790+00:002012-01-13T15:54:26.790+00:00No of course not. I just think Joan McAlpine was ...No of course not. I just think Joan McAlpine was being ridiculously hyperbolic, just as F.E. Smith was on another issue 100 years ago.<br /><br />Incidentally the SNP ought to remember David Abercrombie, professor of phonetics at the University of Edinburgh and ardent SNP supporter. To read his essays would teach you how to argue with reason and faultless courtesy and yet in such a way that you finish reading in startled realisation that there is nothing left of the people he has been attacking.Tom Barneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02318269661959002397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-46750897242339988582012-01-13T15:38:20.684+00:002012-01-13T15:38:20.684+00:00RevStu 3:21pm, lolRevStu 3:21pm, lolGrassyKnollingtonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-91651482752804346022012-01-13T15:21:44.450+00:002012-01-13T15:21:44.450+00:00Tom: So, in so far as I can make any sense of it, ...Tom: So, in so far as I can make any sense of it, your defence against an accusation of being "anti-Scottish" is to say "Scotland is too pathetically insignificant for anyone to notice anything that happens there"? Have I got that right?RevStuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03915111503712807257noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-13462063662783490082012-01-13T15:17:22.252+00:002012-01-13T15:17:22.252+00:00I'm not at all surprised to see opportunistic ...I'm not at all surprised to see opportunistic British nationalists making hay with McAlpine's comments.<br />Politics is a dirty business after all and I would expect no less.<br /><br />Of course the fact that Joan McAlpine said their Behaviour was anti-Scottish rather than the people themselves has been conveniently ignored for propaganda purposes and again absolutely no surprises there.<br /><br />What did surprise me is the genuine indignation felt by people like Caron. As RevStu points out the behaviour of these people most certainly could be described as anti-Scottish. So why the outrage?<br /><br />Could it be that the very idea of being accused of anti-Scottish behaviour hits a very raw nerve with people who don't like to see themselves that way?<br /><br />Making lots of noise and jumping up and down calling for Joan to be sacked is perhaps a distraction technique designed to prevent themselves and others from examining her words and why she might have said them.<br /><br />Viewing the behaviour of certain British nationalists as anti-Scottish is perfectly legitimate in my view. Joan McAlpine was quite right to stand her ground.GrassyKnollingtonnoreply@blogger.com