tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post2452968019658338545..comments2024-03-25T12:55:40.911+00:00Comments on Caron's Musings: Rennard: How is the party going to get through this?Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04988201531739344840noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-67489074728480542152014-01-21T05:01:56.921+00:002014-01-21T05:01:56.921+00:00I have been a member of the Liberals and Liberal D...I have been a member of the Liberals and Liberal Democrats for years. I have never seen any woman member abused in anyway at any party events.How is it now there is the need for special protection? <br />I have been aware of some of the abuse in the world that women really face but I don't think all this stuff about Rennard is going to help them in any way.Manfaranghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16672026288937285646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-84049373834951500692014-01-20T20:09:35.064+00:002014-01-20T20:09:35.064+00:00By far the best and wisest commentary I have read ...By far the best and wisest commentary I have read on this whole awful sorry mess - 4 months before Euro and (in Lon) all-up local elections. Please just let it be resolved honourably as fast as possible Sarah Ludfordnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-17461233100259526182014-01-20T09:53:52.048+00:002014-01-20T09:53:52.048+00:00Caron - well put. it is sad that a party I joined ...Caron - well put. it is sad that a party I joined partly because it is intrinsically tolerant and understanding of individuals is tearing itself up over this. There are hurt people on both 'sides'. we need to understand why and WE need to help them move on. well done. Thomas Pragnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-34283838835155893242014-01-20T07:19:10.676+00:002014-01-20T07:19:10.676+00:00Scott Walker, this was news to me as well. But the...Scott Walker, this was news to me as well. But there is a difference between the raw evidence and Alistair Webster's report which I don't think Chris, or Carlile or Tim or Nick have seen (as opposed to his summary conclusion - which was made public).Paul Walterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00525444717679391831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-11400620192106883222014-01-20T00:42:38.893+00:002014-01-20T00:42:38.893+00:00Caron, I posted the following text on C Rennard...Caron, I posted the following text on C Rennard's facebook page this morning.<br />.<br />This is politics. It not an intellectual process, it's an emotional one. If you have to start relying on legal arguments as to whether there is a 49% or 51% chance of some judicial resolution then you have already lost in the forum of public opinion. It is always an error of judgement for senior persons to put themselves in positions where their reputation could be compromised. Having done that and having reached what is at best a verdict of "Not Proven" it is a further and grosser error of judgement to pretend that "business as usual" can be resumed. In your case, Chris, to attack the leader and the party into the bargain is unforgivable. Your behaviour caused this and now your behaviour can solve it. Please make the right choice.Nick Hollinghurstnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-61566078339880251422014-01-20T00:33:58.744+00:002014-01-20T00:33:58.744+00:00Hi Caron,
You say "Chris Rennard has not been...Hi Caron,<br />You say "Chris Rennard has not been found innocent" surely no one is found innocent, they are presumed innocent until proven guilty. The problem here is that without a hearing allowing robust examination of the claims by all parties there is no finding - therefore he is innocent. <br /><br />Finding that the evidence is credible should be the first step not the justification for action.<br /><br />I also worry about the media manipulation by both sides. If the claimed email trail in the guardian is true then it will only deepen the trenches. It will also show that an apology will never be enough, they want him our of the Lords.Steve Waynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-6255516829105556212014-01-19T23:24:51.755+00:002014-01-19T23:24:51.755+00:00Thank you for such a thoughtful post Caron.
For t...Thank you for such a thoughtful post Caron.<br /><br />For the record I am neither in the “growing number of people who feel that Chris Rennard should apologise” or the camp of “those who genuinely believe Rennard to be innocent”. In fact I have no view on his guilt/innocence or the level of it. I simply feel the whole situation is unsatisfactory where he’s neither been cleared nor found to have some wrong-doing in a disciplinary sense.<br /><br />I hadn't realised that Rennard had seen the evidence. My main issue with asking him to apologise was that if he didn't know the exact nature of the allegations he was being asked to apologise for, any apology, even for something unintentional, would be false and he would only be doing so under duress.<br /><br />I can't find anything in either of the statements from the QC which says Rennard has seen the evidence. Perhaps you could help me with that please if I'm being daft and missed something.<br /><br />I completely agree with you about taking the temperature down and for people to use more suitable language - on all sides of the debate. It seems to me that a more thoughtful, tempered discussion; such as you have initiated will eventually bring about a conclusion which will not see everything implode.Scott Walkerhttp://liberallyscott.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-47607355333084042772014-01-19T20:52:52.565+00:002014-01-19T20:52:52.565+00:00"On one hand, there are a growing number of p..."On one hand, there are a growing number of people who feel that Chris Rennard should apologise as asked to do so by Alistair Webster QC before being admitted back into the Lords group. I was really surprised that the Scottish Liberal Democrats Executive agreed unanimously yesterday to back Nick Clegg's position on this. Although we confined our motion to that, there was a call to also condemn Lord Carlile for his deeply offensive public statements.<br /><br />On the other hand, there are those who genuinely believe Rennard to be innocent and to have been found so by the enquiry. They are fiercely protective of him and view the complainants, as our friend Lord Carlile does, as "bad losers" or possibly even worse."<br /><br />There are a lot of people staggering around bemused in the middle of those two views as well.<br /><br />Your points are very good and I greatly respect their strength.<br /><br />Chris Rennard isn't going to apologise at this stage and the Lords won't withdraw the whip from him. So we're left so that the only thing that will bring some form of closure is a facilitated airing of all the grievances and rebutals as proposed by Liberal Democrat Women (of whom I am a member). Until that is done, we may as well focus our energy and passion on other topics.<br /><br />This view from Amy Kitcher is worth reading, if you haven't already:<br /><br />https://www.facebook.com/amykitcher/posts/10152334556557018?stream_ref=10<br />Paul Walterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00525444717679391831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-78809380223213752342014-01-19T19:41:52.366+00:002014-01-19T19:41:52.366+00:00Great blog Caron. I wonder if it would help the n...Great blog Caron. I wonder if it would help the naysayers understand why CR should apologise if we changed the context. <br />What if he were accused of using foul language in the hearing of others? He may not realise how offensive others find it. He would certainly not be meaning to cause offence. But surely, anybody who has this pointed out to them would immediately apologise for their behaviour and STOP IT?<br /><br />Having said that, how anybody (in the 21st century) can reach such a position in any organisation and not know where the line of interpersonal behaviour is drawn is beyond me. Jenny Jamesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-76915348428479641562014-01-19T19:41:28.596+00:002014-01-19T19:41:28.596+00:00I think you have written a very good post, though ...I think you have written a very good post, though Clegg's standing among Peers is also part of the problem - many do not hold him in high regard, meaning he lacks authority to lead properly.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09885302221128573690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-59567221937242802652014-01-19T19:41:20.184+00:002014-01-19T19:41:20.184+00:00I have deliberately not commented on this matter t...I have deliberately not commented on this matter thus far as I had no direct experience of any inappropriate behaviour by Chris, nor did I know more than vaguely any of the women involved, so was completely unaware of this before it hit the media. <br /><br />However, I am happy to say I strongly agree with what Caron has written. I hope that all involved can find a way to move forward that can be acceptable to all. Rebecca Taylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09016047899877311977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-3362137363308092072014-01-19T17:35:37.404+00:002014-01-19T17:35:37.404+00:00"Simply, when someone is told that there is e..."Simply, when someone is told that there is evidence that their behaviour has caused distress, their first reaction should be to apologise for that distress, whether it was intended or not." Spot on,I am sure that is what most of us would do. <br /><br />Linda Jackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05155438246679688058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-28796761284891792732014-01-19T17:16:31.599+00:002014-01-19T17:16:31.599+00:00Tracy, the women have been trying to get a resolut...Tracy, the women have been trying to get a resolution for years. It's 11 years this year since incident that Bridget Harris complained about. It's not been them dragging it out. Chris could have apologised last Wednesday rather than have this clog up the news agenda ever since. <br /><br />This has never been about money for the women.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04988201531739344840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-73985740159266597372014-01-19T17:13:52.127+00:002014-01-19T17:13:52.127+00:00It seems to me that even if Chris did apologise th...It seems to me that even if Chris did apologise the women would still persue a civil case against him and the the apology may work against him in that situation. So not much point if the women are hell bent on dragging this out anyway.<br /><br />If an apology would mean the end of it then great, apologise, others there's no point if it jusy goes on and on and on damaging the party.Tracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15296179808323307071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-63379796561355333462014-01-19T14:57:58.309+00:002014-01-19T14:57:58.309+00:00Great article Caron.Great article Caron.Rob Blackiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00539163686860852374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-78713781766976187442014-01-19T14:57:30.569+00:002014-01-19T14:57:30.569+00:00Ok, thanks. Hadn't seen that N Korea thing but...Ok, thanks. Hadn't seen that N Korea thing but have now edited.<br /><br />I think there is a way of doing it that allows everyone to feel that this is a serious apology.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04988201531739344840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-68231549702308029192014-01-19T14:20:22.788+00:002014-01-19T14:20:22.788+00:00As you know Caron we mostly agree on this. I just ...As you know Caron we mostly agree on this. I just want to pick up on a few things.<br />First of all the story about the North Korean execution by dogs is almost certainly false according to the BBC website. However the general point is valid, it is ridiculous to compare with North Korea.<br />More importantly I have not seen how it is possible for CR to give an apology that the women will find acceptable that does not specifically refer to what they said he did to them. I have seen people try to write such an apology on his behalf by making general non-specific points, but if he does that how does his victims know he is apologising for the right thing?Left Libhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06363370783879139149noreply@blogger.com