tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post3077486646406423176..comments2024-03-25T12:55:40.911+00:00Comments on Caron's Musings: Willie Rennie's conference speech was a failure........Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04988201531739344840noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-11991102093370315552011-10-11T10:42:16.814+01:002011-10-11T10:42:16.814+01:00@Graeme
Working for a charity that represents aro...@Graeme<br /><br />Working for a charity that represents around a million people in this country I can be critical of the SNP on several levels but can honestly says that I have never seen the SG as threatening or intimidating. <br /><br />I think that linking SLD *policy* on Scotland (Home Rule/Federalism) and *liberalism* per se was wrong. The two are not linked.<br /><br />@Andrew - I totally agree!<br />@GavinS<br /><br />I was more meaning liberal nationalism where the form of nationalism in which the state derives political legitimacy from the active participation of its citizenry. As Liberals we can and should have no problem in the people of Scotland shaping their own state (although Tavish had a big problem with that). As SLD we can advocate a certain shape but again, that shape is not based on Liberalism per se.Dogulas McLellanhttp://www.scotsgazette.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-13735631438628855412011-10-10T17:15:49.161+01:002011-10-10T17:15:49.161+01:00John Stuart Mill was an early Liberal nationalist ...John Stuart Mill was an early Liberal nationalist if, and only if, that is what you want to find in his writing. It's a big stretch to suggest he's a likely supporter of the SNP.<br /><br />The textual evidence normally given for the 'liberal nationalist' claim is the Sixteenth Chapter of 'On Representative Democracy' which is not exactly at the top of the running order within that piece of work.<br /><br />Unremarkably, if you read the chapter itself, Mill's view is much more descriptive than prescriptive. He's basically saying that all representative democracies are defined states with links between their people. <br /><br />He goes on to say, for instance:<br /><br />"No Bas-Breton, nor even any Alsatian, has the smallest wish at the present day to be separated from France. If all Irishmen have not yet arrived at the same disposition towards England, it is partly because they are sufficiently numerous to be capable of constituting a respectable nationality by themselves; but principally because, until of late years, they had been so atrociously governed, that all their best feelings combined with their bad ones in rousing bitter resentment against the Saxon rule. This disgrace to England, and calamity to the whole empire, has, it may be truly said, completely ceased for nearly a generation. No Irishman is now less free than an Anglo-Saxon, nor has a less share of every benefit either to his country or to his individual fortunes than if he were sprung from any other portion of the British dominions. The only remaining real grievance of Ireland, that of the State Church, is one which half, or nearly half, the people of the larger island have in common with them. There is now next to nothing, except the memory of the past, and the difference in the predominant religion, to keep apart two races, perhaps the most fitted of any two in the world to be the completing counterpart of one another. The consciousness of being at last treated not only with equal justice but with equal consideration is making such rapid way in the Irish nation as to be wearing off all feelings that could make them insensible to the benefits which the less numerous and less wealthy people must necessarily derive from being fellow-citizens instead of foreigners to those who are not only their nearest neighbours, but the wealthiest, and one of the freest, as well as most civilised and powerful, nations of the earth."<br /><br />All fairly Victorian in its outlook and the situation in Ireland has moved on a long way since. <br /><br />It doesn't sound, though, like Mill thought small nations based on historic grievances (frankly rather more clear-cut grievances than any Scotland has) were necessarily for the best.GavinSnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-10631026902510330312011-10-10T16:26:18.961+01:002011-10-10T16:26:18.961+01:00I'm with Douglas to a point. The tone on nati...I'm with Douglas to a point. The tone on nationalism (or at least independence) WAS wrong. And the other line I think Douglas is referring to was more than a little misguided. <br /><br />Liberalism is not by nature anti-independence. But liberalism is, philosophically speaking, internationalist rather than nationalist in its outlook. If we're going to challenge nationalism where it manifests itself, then we should also challenge unionst nationalism as well as seperatist nationalism. <br /><br />As for the equal marriage issue, I was delighted that Willie had the courage to challenge the powers that be within the Catholic Church in a way that no other political leader has yet done. It was superb stuff, all the better and more genuine for the fact that Willie didn't need to do it. On this issue he has shown some true leadership and an ability to tap into the public mood.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02027368242570244912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-53355790552608556502011-10-10T16:09:05.086+01:002011-10-10T16:09:05.086+01:00Douglas, journalists, civil society and charities ...Douglas, journalists, civil society and charities have told me in private on many occasions that they have been threatened into silence by the SG, threatened with funding cut, withdrawl of support, or limited access to Ministers. <br /><br />This now seems to be changing, as after 4 years of this treatment they are simply fed up.<br /><br />As Willie said, many Liberals may have natioanlist tendencies, but SLD exist to bring about federalism, home rule for Scotland and has no truck with an independent Scotland that would harm the interests of out country.Graeme Littlejohnhttp://www.twitter.com/littlegrumpyGnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34128264.post-39805790306479994112011-10-10T14:04:52.230+01:002011-10-10T14:04:52.230+01:00I am sorry I missed it but I still think the tone ...I am sorry I missed it but I still think the tone on nationalism is wrong (John Stuart Mill was an early Liberal nationalist). <br /><br />And the intimidation line is not one I've heard in the voluntary sector before. Which makes the sinister line seem remarkably out of place and frankly unworthy of the type of Lib Dem I feel I am.<br /><br />That said the stuff on gay marriage was excellent.Douglas McLellanhttp://www.scotsgazette.orgnoreply@blogger.com